Curse

theamazingfish · Feb 20, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

I have been playing for a while now (15 months)

And I have just taken up the 10 day demo of world of warcraft.

I asked around a bit and found some interesting opinions on the two games.

Most of all i have found a TON of converties from guild wars to wow

The main reason of all....

"i quit guild wars because of the constant changes"

I of course said that changes are to balance the game.

the best thing i heard for an argument to that was..

"in order to "balance the game" anet take a very poor aproach to it. they seem to take away the footing of every gamer the second they have a grip on the situation."

I said that is balance.. you have to take away from one and give to another..

The majority of people then responded.. "world of warcraft dosent touch the game because of one simple reason. They know that the gamers will figure out ways to get advantages.. and those advantages are earned"

Of course i said that guild wars is different..

Long story short... a ton of the folks that left guild wars for wow said one simple thing... they left it because they could never seem to get ahead in that game..

No matter what they did somthing would come along and ruin it.. be it pvp or pve..

One of the bigest issues had is the ai changes that are still in effect....

I for one did not like them.. but i kept an open mind.

Some of the issues brought to my attention from wow players really got me thinking though..

It is simply summed up in one sentence "how much is to much"

When you keep taking away from a game.. like decreasing times and changing ai.. it is only a matter of time before there is nothing left... and your game has died..

one of the bigest examples of this has to be when a person asked me.. "How many times has urgoz been completed after the ai nerf."...

That really got me thinking.. although factions is not new.. it is most certainly not old either..

my final argument for guild wars over wow was absolutly shot down.. i said.. "guild wars is for the casual gamer"

This got me yelled at.. a ton of the people i met on wow had been casual 1-2 hours a day gamers... and some even less.

My final opinion is that unless some changes are made.. the sad truth is that guild wars will fall to wow...

So i wanted to have the same disscussion here in the forums that i had in wow.. to give each side a chance to display some opinions on the subject..

keep in mind i have zero tolerance for flames or any moderater bias that may result from opinions here... keep the thread open and keep it civil people.. thanks

DISCUSS:

stuntharley · Feb 20, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

For a fact my 3 best gw friends on here go WoW and quit because all it is, is grind grind grind.

My RL friends play it and they say the same thing.

Also I heard that the GW graphics are 300 times better then WoW..

Anet try to balance the game but sometimes mess it up. Sometimes they make it better.

sindex · Feb 20, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Allow me if you will. Obviously there has been a comparison of the two, but the argument constantly spins off in another direction when people consider WoW is not GW and vise versa. In that sense the games spawn two types of fans and those who are in the middle of it all. Trust me, I have been in all types of forums and seen all types of arguments on this issue, and I have seen that both sides have flaws and productive value to them.

Of course GW will not die and neither will WoW, and everyone will always comment on how one is more interesting then the other. As you compared the people leaving GW for WoW, I have seen if not more people leave WoW as well.

These are games in which everyone is satisfied by different means. I can tell you, “you will honestly never find the answer your looking for, by sitting on the wall.” Furthermore most of the people here are just simply not interested in the argument anymore, since it’s gotten repetitive.

arcanemacabre · Feb 20, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by theamazingfish

When you keep taking away from a game.. like decreasing times and changing ai.. it is only a matter of time before there is nothing left... and your game has died..

See, I feel the exact opposite with this statement. First of all, changing =/= taking away. That said, changing the game keeps it fresh, and far from dying. A stagnant, non-changing game dies a little each day.

shadowmist · Feb 20, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

WoW got boring for me cause after I got the uber gear, did all the high end raids, played pvp for a month, and farmed for crap loads of cash, there didn't feel like there was anything left to do. Sure, I played around with other classes and even hopped to the horde side for a bit, but that got boring too.

GW on the other hand you don't ever 'get ahead' of the other players. In high end anything, its all about skill. Two wars can easily have the same gear, and same build. But at the end of the day, the one who played better won. Not to say WoW doesn't have a bit of this, but l33t gear takes a lot of that away as those players run over everything else.

I like being overpowered and killing everything as much as your next gamer, but that gets boring quick. I prefer a challenge, and becoming hard to defeat based on what I do. The balance changes are welcomed, as they force me and others to adapt. Of course, at times I get really annoyed with Anet. The first paragon nerfs I could take, but I felt they did it a few times too many. But at the end of the day, I handle change better than the same old same old.

Of course, Burning Crusade is out now, which might make me go back to WoW, even if its just for a bit. GW is my poison of choice for now though ^_^

Navaros · Feb 20, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by theamazingfish

My final opinion is that unless some changes are made.. the sad truth is that guild wars will fall to wow...

Guild Wars cannot sometime in the future "fall to WoW" because if Guild Wars was going to fall to WoW then it has already done so ever since WoW first came out. WoW has always vastly outsold Guild Wars.

In my view it comes done to WoW is a MMO, and Guild Wars is not. Some people are willing to pay monthly for a MMO game, whereas some people don't like paying monthly hence they will stick with Guild Wars.

Since the monthy fee factor is not going to change in either case, in my view the numbers will always remain pretty the same as they are now.

The discussion might make more sense if it was about Guild Wars falling to another no monthly fee 100% instanced game that has yet to be released.

Disagree with the poster who said there is nothing to do in WoW. In my view Guild Wars has that problem a lot worse, since Guild Wars has very few endgame rewards and once you get the ones it does have, there is nothing left to do in Guild Wars.

Syntonic · Feb 20, 2007, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Uh, WoW classes have been rebalanced and nerfed before. There has been huge changes over time. I'm not understanding what the point of the OP's post was. Perhaps they aren't as constant as Guild Wars but when they do change, it's usually some fairly large changes. Maybe you haven't played WoW long enough to see it in action. Just lurk in the WoW forums. "OUR CLASS SUX. GIVE US SKILLZ." "ZOMG, THAT CLASS IS OVERPOWERED. THEY NEED NERFING." It goes on and on.

Nearly every MMOG has gone through slight revisions of some sort. It's a living environment and sometimes, things just don't work out as the developers planned. Not all changes are good - the absolute worst case example is probably the Star Wars MMOG and what they did to their universe. It was poorly executed and short-sighted in hindsight but probably, the developers had little choice.

I find Guild Wars is much more like a true successor to Diablo rather than a traditional MMOG as was defined by UO/Meridian 59/text-based adventures. Guild Wars expanded on the concept PvP and guilds (instead of ganking,) has populated towns instead of Battle.net chat interface, and truly expansive missions. The skill system may have a slight twist when compared to Diablo II but it isn't that far off when you come down to it (people invest all their points into several skills and synergies in D2 rather than choosing/capturing skills and putting points in what governs those skills like in GW. GW happens to be far more flexible as well. Again, more improvements.) In fact, whenever Diablo III does come out, it just might pale in comparison to GW's system.

Former Ruling · Feb 20, 2007, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Their argument is valid, and so is the counter argument. It depends on why you were playing the game anyway.

In WoW and other games you can just pick something you like doing and just do that...all the time...and get reward out of it. In Guild Wars every skill balance and game update turns all your favorite stuff around. This means that it lives up to its promise of consistent balancing and changing, but also means that person that only played to farm [insert something] with his [insert farming build] no longer has anything to do once its nerfed in one way or the other, and that person that was in a top pvp guild and was comfortable with where his team was now has to change up and re-learn the meta every skill balance. This isn't helped by the fact that GW has limited end game things to do in the first place.

The games appeal to different people, and the ones that were comfortable where they were in GW will naturally go to a safer haven for their play style as GW continues its current planned path.

BryanM · Feb 20, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Guild Wars would kneel before WoW and die only by introducing a monthly fee.

Unless there are massive changes to the game next update, a mass of people will quit playing as much when Hellgate London comes out. Something to truly feed their Diablo-esque hunger.

The skill balances aren't the reason someone would dump the game for. WoW mostly has an infinite progression model - you can always hunt for better lewt, which will always be added to the game in update. The endless carrot.

Guild Wars really bonked themselves on making equipment interesting - a sword is pretty much functionally as generic as the next one. I'll whip out my Ogre-Slaying knife 'cause it's uber effective against these ogres, etc.

//RogueNine · Feb 20, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by theamazingfish

keep in mind i have zero tolerance for flames or any moderater bias that may result from opinions here... keep the thread open and keep it civil people.. thanks

DISCUSS:

tl;dr but found the last line pretty funny. You post this on a GW fansite and 1) expect no flames and 2) dont tollerate mod bias.. got news for you but I think they can do whatever the hell they want.

Kakumei · Feb 20, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

OP I know you're having a love affair with your enter key but I'm sure you can get your finger off of it for just a second and write a coherent paragraph if you really try.

And uh this subject itself is pretty lol. GW vs WoW? Welcome to three years ago.

Edge Martinez · Feb 20, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

I think both games look pretty cool. I'd say (not from experience) that WoW must have something to it that makes it slightly more interesting than GW, but I'm happy with GW. I say this only because my friends who play WoW love it so much they pretty much do it all the time. As much as I love computers, and as much as I love video games, I can't bring myself to get involved with something that addictive, because I enjoy other things as well.

Despite having the 15k armor, and despite having the green and gold items, I like GW because if I chose to do so, I could run Drok's armor and a collector weapon with mods and not get 'run over', as shadowmist said, by someone with the high end gear. Despite it getting shot down by the converted players you spoke to (OP), I still stick to the casual gamer argument.

strcpy · Feb 20, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by theamazingfish

"in order to "balance the game" anet take a very poor aproach to it. they seem to take away the footing of every gamer the second they have a grip on the situation."

As you say, that is balancing a game. If something is too easy, too powerful it gets nerfed and somethings get a buff. GW is about change, do not play this game if you do not want anyone to move your cheese.

Quote:

The majority of people then responded.. "world of warcraft dosent touch the game because of one simple reason. They know that the gamers will figure out ways to get advantages.. and those advantages are earned"

BS, WoW is all about power levelling and uber items, not balance in any way shape, form, or fashion. Most MMO's aren't - if you ever play an MMO that *is* about balance it does like GW, builds get killed every few months and the meta game totally shifts (even if you only PvE in those games). Heck, some of them I've played in the past didn't let you respec a character after that, only reroll from scratch. Now *thats* frustrating.

Quote:

Long story short... a ton of the folks that left guild wars for wow said one simple thing... they left it because they could never seem to get ahead in that game..

Yep, in GW you will never get the "Leet Sword of Kill Everything" and the "Armor of No One Can Kill Me". You will note that constant changes have *nothing* to do with this, only that they can not get an overpowered build to play all day long. Nothing wrong with wanting an overpowered build - I quite enjoy them while they last in PvE. But it's like complaining that a menu based RPG doesn't have a good aiming system and will fail against the likes of Unreal Tournament. Well, yea, I suppose so if you are looking for a FPS.

Quote:

When you keep taking away from a game.. like decreasing times and changing ai.. it is only a matter of time before there is nothing left... and your game has died..

I'm nor sure how the AI changes are taking away from anything. I, and many people, kill things just as fast as before (in fact, I find the AI easier to game in higher end areas now). My cheese got moved, I moved to where the it went. Nothing has been taken away. Lets face it, does it bother you that Illusionary Weaponry doesn't work with Hundred Blades like it did during the beta events? Nope, yet you should have heard the screaming even months after release - sounds almost exactly like what was said above.

Quote:

one of the bigest examples of this has to be when a person asked me.. "How many times has urgoz been completed after the ai nerf."...

Waa? There wasn't a big drop in Urgoz completion in any of the AI changes. The biggest drop was when Nightfall was released because many are playing Nightfall. Even assuming there was, there is FAR more game than Urgoz.

Quote:

My final opinion is that unless some changes are made.. the sad truth is that guild wars will fall to wow...

Doubt it, player base in increasing with each chapter. I call that a general success. Old players and guilds leave, new come in, some rotate back into the game. Same thing with WoW - it is nod hard to find WoW converts in GW also. They are different games. My guess would be that if Anet tried to take on WoW and make it a clone they would get trashed - why play a clone when you can play the real thing?

I've been here since shortly after release and this has been said over and over and over and over. We got them A LOT before the release of Factions, then they died down, and now they seem to have reared their ungly heads again. GW is growing, not declining. And it is *because* of this type of thing making it different than others. It's not for everyone - if you do not like the game and prefer WoW - play WoW. No big deal. GW is not about power leveling and uber gear, many MMO'ers want that. If that is your thing then WoW is most likely the best game out there - GW is probably the best balanced online RPG out there.

Vandal2k6 · Feb 20, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Long story short... a ton of the folks that left guild wars for wow said one simple thing... they left it because they could never seem to get ahead in that game..

Um, isn't that what "balancing" is for? If one skill, weapon, class ... can have an advantage over another then it needs to be balanced. One thing Anet does (especially of late) is consult the community about these changes. Even after the uproar about the Paragon nerfs, they said they'll keep an eye on things and asjust them accordingly. If one class was better than another for example the warrior, the game would be full of them. All the work put into the other classes would be useless. I say thanks very much to Anet for the constant tweaking. At the very least it keeps you on your toes and makes you think about things.

As for WoW. I've got it. It's sat on my shelf gathering dust. For me it just doesn't gell and I'll also say that NOBODY I know has gone from GW to WoW. Usually the other way around if any. Still, each to their own.

Domino · Feb 20, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

People don't like change.

If you doubt this... go check out Diablo II sometime - there are STILL people playing that game on Battle.net, grinding the same quests/areas over and over.

World of Warcraft offers the similar principal. They are less likely to make significant gameplay changes because people pay every month. - Blizz won't do anything that might stop those monthly fees from coming in, and the less they change, the less chance of pissing people off.

I understand the frustration though. If you're build gets "too good", expect it to be nerfed or countered. I used to play Minion Master before the nerf, and it's annoying to have a build you can rely on suddenly cut off at the knees, and having to tweak your strategy.

It's ironic, because they nerf necromancers because they're "too good" for Factions... and yet they don't nerf a 55 monk build that lets you waltz through the game unscathed. Dubya tee eff? But that's a rant for another time and place.

Bottom line: Change keeps Guild Wars dynamic and fun, at the same time players want consistancy in their gameplay experience. Guild Wars doesn't always offer this consistancy, so get used to skill balances every other week or play World of Warcraft where the gameplay is practically the same as when the game launched. It's a matter of personal preference.

theamazingfish · Feb 20, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Lol I will have to point out that there have been some attempted flames at me for my post..

Please note that most of the comments are not even my own and are quotes of in game players.

Also It is true that my experience level in wow is only based off of a free trial version..

But my gw time is extensive.

And i spent a tad more time tonight in wow learning and talking to more people.

I relayed some of the responces from this site to the people and asked a general opinion of them.

For the most part i received a very kind response. It would definatly seem that wow players are more polite than gw player.

Because in the thirteen posts i have seen so far two have attempted a flame.

In the thirty or so people of wow i asked opinions of and expressed my opinions too.. I did not get flamed even once.
-------------------------------------

As for the general discussion here. I have also gone into gw mission areas looking to get some opinions of players.

While neither players from guild wars nor wow feel that they are in direct competition with each other. They do feel that both games want to make profit. and that you could classify both games as "time requirement" type games.... So unless you are in the small majority that regularly plays both.. they are in a way in direct competition for sales to new players.

One more thing i picked up was an observation of general time spent playing the games. and predicted longevity

While its very true that guild wars is still alive.. many gw players that have played for a VERY long time have become bored with the game after 2 years or so.. even with the release of 3 chapters.

You cannot say that these players are best suited for wow because of the time they have spent in gw..

And still these players feel that even with new chapters.. guild wars will become a stagnant empty game much faster than wow.

This is due mainly to the "balance" issue. Some feel balance is good.. While others feel its bad. But it seems to me that the ones that are happy with the balance may be a minority.. And even the people that are happy with balance seem to be getting tired of the same repetitive chapters.

I did get one seemingly negative quote from one ex gw and now wow player when i told him about some of the responses here.... he said

"most the players that are happy have not been playing for anywhere near as long as i have.. Its easy to be happy if your only 6 months old."

With that said a few more people seemed to pop up and agree with that statement..
--------------------------------

Please bear in mind that these are statements of others. This topic may be an old one but as time progresses opinions can change. and this being a discussion forum it is a perfect place for a discussion such as this.

And if you do not want to further the conception that gw players are generally more rude than wow players i suggest you stop with the flame attempts as per the reasons stated above.

Once again for the most part i like where this thread is going. i would hate to have a few bad apples spoil a good conversation.

Please continue disscussion:

:edit:

a player also referd to the whole balance thing as this:

"When 55 was new.. it was tough to play.. when spirit bond was new.. it was hated and totally tuff to play.. when any decent idea or build is new.. its difficult to play.. they are not overpowerd untill a guide is written and thousands of "followers" need to have their hands held when they want one too... its only an idiots cookie cutter build if you did not invent it."

Naf Olbaid · Feb 20, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

There is nothing to compare..

Pay to Play = Higher quality, More support.

Just use your Logic.

This is like comparing Cable Television to Regular Television.

roperratt · Feb 20, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

I don't see GW bowing to WOW anytime soon for one chief reason, monthly fees. I won't pay them and there are probably a whole lot more people that agree with me on that. I don't mind the occasional changes that make me rethink how to attack a certain area. I've been in GW for a year and a half, and I still play my original Ranger. I've tried I don't know how many builds with her, some worked, some didn't, some used to work well, some only just now work well. I've enjoyed almost every minute of it. I had a few bad times where I was convinced that I would never make it through a mission. I like the idea that I have to work to earn what I want in the game. It's what makes it unique. I never have to woory about some uber-leet-high-level-bozo with godly gear is gonna be able to beat me. After level 20 it all balances out, that makes it fun. But the bottom line to me is the financial bottom line, no monthly fees.

theamazingfish · Feb 20, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by roperratt

I don't see GW bowing to WOW anytime soon for one chief reason, monthly fees. I won't pay them and there are probably a whole lot more people that agree with me on that. I don't mind the occasional changes that make me rethink how to attack a certain area. I've been in GW for a year and a half, and I still play my original Ranger. I've tried I don't know how many builds with her, some worked, some didn't, some used to work well, some only just now work well. I've enjoyed almost every minute of it. I had a few bad times where I was convinced that I would never make it through a mission. I like the idea that I have to work to earn what I want in the game. It's what makes it unique. I never have to woory about some uber-leet-high-level-bozo with godly gear is gonna be able to beat me. After level 20 it all balances out, that makes it fun. But the bottom line to me is the financial bottom line, no monthly fees.

Do you feel that your working for your progress in guild wars more than a wow player does?

And as far as i know a wow monthly subscription is about $10 so for 6 months thats $60

Guild wars games are around 40-60 dollars and are released every six months... couple that with the additional character slots players pay for and the skill packs..

Seems that price may not be a valid argument for a reason why gw beats out wow.. or vice versa.

Dont get me wrong im not preaching wow over gw at all.... I just find it difficult to maintain "ballance" while in a gw dedicated forum.

Hell Raiser · Feb 20, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

I have never played wow, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter at all, but here it is...
The monthly fee issue, question: does wow release new games or just release patches for new areas?

Quote:

Guild Wars games are around 40-60 dollars and are released every six months... couple that with the additional character slots players pay for and the skill packs..

IMHO you have no argument here. It is not a requirement to buy the new chapters or skill packs or character slots to continue playing the game, unlike in WoW where if you don't pay you don't play. As well ArenaNet has said they are not releasing GW4 until the third or fourth quarter of '07, wich makes this more than 6months.

I'm not trying to flame, and I'm not saying you favor WoW, but you can't maintain "balance" if you bring up the ol' GW vs WoW battle.